Naming and shaming models...

[Jay K]

...is it a good idea or not? Roger Cock recently tried to name a no-show on the BGAFD (http://bgafd.co.uk/forum/read.php?f=5&i=37204&t=37204) forum and the post was pulled. So he went to Kelly Steele's The UK Hardcore (http://theukhardcore.com/) site and posted details there. Now all the world can see the model who was a no-show for his shoot. Is this a good or bad idea and should we start naming and shaming here? Models and Producers please discuss!

[MAI Productions]

In general I think it would help reduce the no shows if there was an expectation that naming would happen. A carrer would go down the pan pretty quickly if everyone considered someone to be a persistent no show. On the other hand, sometimes there are genuine reasons for a particular no show which could end up with someone getting "bad press" for something that wasn't their fault.

Difficult to answer as it's not really so black and white as "lets name the no shows"

[winkle]

I think this is a valid point of discussion. I'm a lowly performer so ignore my comments if you wish. But it screws everyone up if productions and shoot days are postponed or cancelled.

Most importantly - EVERYONE in the industry, from top to bottom, would benefit from a more professional industry. If productions are running more efficiently, it means more productions are avilable for everyone to be involved in, ultimately meaning everyone cashes in a little (or even a lot) better.

We all appreciate that things just happen, so no shows will always happen. I think the most important thing to improve this problem is just deleoping a common courtesy, or an ettiquette. Simply by not double booking, giving as much notice as possible if performers need to cancel.

As for "naming no shows" - I think it should be done, but at the Producers discretion. At the end of the day, they are the ones payng for people to turn up and get the work done. They are the only ones who don't get paid on the day, but only when the production is sold...

I'd quite happily expect to get my butt kicked if I let someone down.

Regards
Winkle

[one eyed jack]

I think if we are going to name and shame we should expect models to name the producers who letch over them or the perfomers who want more after the show.

Where do we draw the line? If a model is going to be hauled over the coals in public we should expect petty mud slinging. So yeah I'm all for it but I know what to expect. Personally I would prefer a quiet word amongst the producers which is why we have a pass word protected bit.

I think the reason why no one has really advocated this is that deep down you know its going to be a long and drawn out squabble that wont just include models. Models should have the chance to belly ache back. Lord knows how much I've heard about a certain producer but if he shouldnt be mentioned, why should the models?

[richtapestry]

As a producer/director who is new to the business, I'd welcome a blacklist. A no-show could cripple me at this stage in my career, as I'd still have to pay all the other models and crew, plus studio hire.
Tell the model that a bad report is about to be filed and give her a chance to reply. Maybe her dog really DID get run over. Perhaps her granny DID die (for the fourth time).

[one eyed jack]

The annoying thing is Rich if it happens to you it will come out of the blue. Just cos a girl screws up with one or two producers doesnt mean she does it all the time which ultimately is why these black list things are damaging to the model and rarely work.

I doubt a black list will make any difference actually. if its in a womans nature to do this she'll just blow everyone off and work with the next producer or get into escorting and thats the problem. If a girl is particularly pretty and good at what she does, people will turn a blind eye at the chance to work with her regardless.

This industry makes divas out of wall flowers LOL

[one eyed jack]

I note with interest a good reason not to name and shame models who dont show and understand why BGAFD doesnt adopt this system.

I notice the girl Kelly Steele outed as Bryony Leigh on her site has done a great job for someone else who is raving about her. The point is, who is to say it was before or after? You know as well as I do that shit sticks and most producers wouldnt really check out the date and make their minds up simple because a no show is a no show.

Yes I know no shows are a bane to us producers but lets keep it amongst ourselves as producers shall we. At least I know from the core amongst you I would be given a more up to date and reasoned version.

Personally I dont know this girl and for all I know she probably had a good reason (or not as the case might be) but if we are to name and shame and virtually taint a new models fledgling career, how are we to validate that someone is goingout of their way because she refused to do something requested of her?

I therefore come to the conclusion that doing ones dirty laundry out in public by outing girls is not a good thing. I think we should give them a legit once or twice no show grace.

Some of us producers may have to endure a loss from a promising newbie as a result is what I think as no system works perfectly.

Sometimes the bestest girls are the most problematic to get until they get there and deliver you a blinding scene that all is forgiven.

Still, no reason why we shouldnt make em sweat and squirm uncomfortably for their crimes though

http://www.theukhardcore.com/
http://bgafd.co.uk/forum/read.php?f=5&i=37525&t=37525

[richtapestry]

Jack, I admit it's a tricky one. At the end of the day talent is worth waiting for. And there is always going to be a newcomer who got cold feet or an established artiste who is just having a bad day. On the Escorting sites there are "reviews" with an opportunity for the escort to reply. Maybe one bad review drowned out by lots of supportive ones would actually benefit the model? Certainly might help Ms Leigh.

[sneezwort]

The problem with name and shame is that its not always the model being a paid.

Recently I have done 3 shoots with a local model, but Ihad booked her 3 times before and all the shoots went flat.

Basicly her mobile did not work properly. So when I phoned her she did not get the calls.

Things turned out in the end ok.

But also somtimes people do not get on well with certain people. And as such I may say model x is a pain while you may find her the best ever.

In truth I tend to find models who are a pain, do not last long anyway.

My advise is always phone the model on the day of the shoot if not the day before. If no answer, then consider it a no go.

Often chatting on the phone is much better.

A while ago I emailed a model. We aranged the shoot, and the details inc model release. At the shoot I paid her and handed her the model release. She looked at me as if i was nuts. She said whats that? It turned out i had not been emailing her, but the studio manager who emailed people on her behalf. She sined it in the end. But now I phone the model to make sure its her I am in touch with.

The problem with the big firms (probably most of you), is that often you have a studio, and staff (make up girl/boy, camera crew and so on). So if a model cancels then it will cost you money.

As such may I sugest that when you book a model, you make it clear that if she does not turn up, its going to be a huge problem, and as such if she is ill, please phone as soon as possible.

Of course if you book a model via a model agency, I would sugest sending them a bill for the costs. Often these are run by some twit who has no idea, but thinks its a great way to make cash by getting a percentage of the models wage. |Well if they are not insured for this, its not your problem, they should pay the costs.

[sneezwort]

In general I think it would help reduce the no shows if there was an expectation that naming would happen. A carrer would go down the pan pretty quickly if everyone considered someone to be a persistent no show. On the other hand, sometimes there are genuine reasons for a particular no show which could end up with someone getting "bad press" for something that wasn't their fault.

Difficult to answer as it's not really so black and white as "lets name the no shows"


I do not think it will. A lot of girls who are no shows will not care. All they need do is use a different model name.

Plus would there not be legal problems?

By this, I mean if I worked for you and asked for a referce, and you gave me a bad one, I can sue you. So in theory surly a model could sue you for a ton of cash. All she has to do is say your telling fibs.

[Cenobitez]

Sneezwort,

Its my understanding, you can give a factual reference, Which can list, Warnings, so rather than a bad reference, you simply provide a factual (counter-signed warnings by employee) reference, that lists on 45 occasions, said employee was verbally or in writing was warned. :P i always used to say its a factual reference which can and or will include. This being factual, I suppose could include that on 37 times, the model did not complete her task.

The keyword is Factual, I never had to issue a bad reference so i didnt look into it, but the guidelines always refered to a Factual Reference, with no personal comments.

[one eyed jack]

Who sues anyone in this industry? You are way off the mark Sneezy. This business is always settled out of court with a straightener on the cobbles. Only pussies go to court.

Going to court means spending money and dragging an issue out longer than need be.

[strictlybroadband]

This being factual, I suppose could include that on 37 times, the model did not complete her task.

This kind of information is useful, but posting one-off no-shows probably is not. The fact that model X didn't turn up on occasion Y isn't useful - for all you know, (s)he might have turned up 99 times out of 100. No-show reports can also be used to take out personal vendettas rather than give accurate information. It seems better to publicly recommend the good performers rather than slag off the bad ones.

A database that says "X turns up 60% of the time but Y turns up 95% of the time" would be useful.

I have to admit I once got pissed off and named a model on BGAFD when she didn't turn up for an interview... then found out she had a genuine reason and I had to eat big portions of humble pie.

[sneezwort]

I understand what you are all saying.

Personaly i do not like naming and shaming.

Mabe, it would be best to get the models themselves to work out the best method.

[sandie caine]

A MODELS VIEW.

Hi guys. Hope all is well.

I guess I will give u the benefit of what i have learnt from this little naming and shaming episode as a model, but Im not going to air my dirty laundry in public.

how far do u go when u do it????? just the name? or do u give ALL her particulars including private information? - this may land u in the shit with the law.
also the dedicated site for naming and shaming may risk being shut down depending what info is given in the post.

another thought is will models not try and counter act by posting there side of things?
a catfight ensuse, he said, she said. as terry says the producer/photographer would need to be pretty squeeky clean themselves to get out of this completely unscathed. both partys professionalism is taken into question.
as the saying goes - people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones. i remember a certain producer thats been complaining of no shows of recent no showing on me twice in his early days. he knows who he is.



of course ur angrey when u get a no show - who wouldnt be. but depending on what u say u might just inadvertently give the model the opposite type of press u want to be giving her. ur own judgement may be questioned instead for example.

and if someone really wants to shoot a girl, they will. i cant see an out and out boycott ever happening cs one company is gonna need that girl cos no other girl fits the casting criteria.
obviously a no show list is an indication to some people who have more casting flexability or are a little tigher with the purse strings.
but whos saying a girl on the list is a one time offender or a serial no show. is ever girl tarnished with the same brush even if its a one off??

anyway...i do think the review option is not such a bad idea.
why not just keep it amongst urselves. isnt that what this site is for????
its workied in the past and a name and shame or no show board wont stop no shows will it now?
trying to stop a girl getting work is just vengence.
u having a word with ur producer buddies about a girl letting u down is just potentially saving them time and money. thats the pro active thing to do.

wouldnt u agree?

[fayerampton]

what infuriates me most is certain websites slagging off girls they have never even met and it has nothing to do with them !!!! its just shit stirring and none of their buisness ! certain people obviously have such a sad , lonely life they have nothing better to do !
well done sandie on your actions on getting a certain site to remove all their bullshit ! about time somebody put a stop to it !

[one eyed jack]

It is my understanding that Sandie has rectified the situation to which the offended person has taken up elsewhere...namely Kelly Steeles site. Personally I would say this negates the good will gesture of doing it for free but as a diplomatic move I applaud it.

On another note, it seems freedom comes at a price. Kelly went out of her way to out Sandie. Sandie retaliated. Cause and effect....and then, ultimately to conclude...a complete waste of time in the end.

So there you have it. Why prolongue a situation by outing models who rectify the situation and the offended person doesnt inform the person he informed?

This is a good example why people exact caution and why some censorship is good because a lot of people cant really (or care to for that matter) handle the truth...or the various versions of 'the truth' individuals think they know of it.

This defines my reasons why we should keep this amongst those in the industry instead of doing our dirty laundry in public. Lets face it, a girl who does porn in all its various guises is not one to be easily shamed by being named. She will however bite back out of pride than shame.

[strictlybroadband]

This is a good example why people exact caution and why some censorship is good because a lot of people cant really (or care to for that matter) handle the truth...or the various versions of 'the truth' individuals think they know of it.

Good journalists check their sources before publishing information. That's not censorship, just common sense. Regarding the recent Sandie episode, we didn't learn anything useful - just that some producer had a moan about Sandie. That could mean that Sandie let the guy down, or that the guy was lying, or that he's a pratt. IMHO sending out the full email transcript makes him a pratt, whether Sandie let him down or not.

[MARINO]

I have known Sandie like most of you for a few years now. And I will say this girl would get off her death bed not to let you down. Sandie for me is one of the U.K's finest chicks and a great fuck too.

[one eyed jack]

Justproves that this naming and shaming thing doesnt work as it always claims people we all know had (or probably) a good reason for not showing.

I dont know Sandies situation and nor am I in a position to comment on it....and that is precisely my point. Kelley went out of her way to get permission to do this on her crusade to out girls and this is the outcome.

Besides there is no shows the world over every day. Why make an issue about it now. Joe Public couldnt give a hoot. Its just fuel for a circus to entertain the public...with damaging consequences. Remember...shit sticks!

[Kelly Steele]

There has been some *ahem* "internal conflicts" within my organization.

The hardcore was temporarily suspended as this matter was being worked out.

The details will be posted and the name and shame game will continue.
Furthermore any producer wishing to use the site for this service is more than welcome to.

The only thing I ask is when you send me the correspondance to do so "pre-edited" All I do is simple cut and paste. I do NOT touch anything once it has been sent to me.

The "dirty side" of the porn indusry gets delt with at the hardcore. It's not about blowing sunshine up the arses of people with stars in their eyes.

Lastly what started off as experiment is growing. In the new year the hardcore will be changing hosts. Expect a bit of down time.

[fayerampton]

yup, most people dont even care about other peoples let downs or squabbles ! a model may be hated by one producer and loved by another !
also no show posts tend to be very one sided ! a certain person mentioned about me doing a no show but didnt mention the fact they also cancelled on me and i later found out the reason they gave me for cancelling was something totally different that they could have avoided by having a better judgement of other peoples characters !plus i was so glad i did the no show in the end !!!!
if any producer or photographer puts up a no show post they should look at themselves first and double check they have not let girls down before ! works both ways !
but at the end of the day this is a small industry and everybody knows everybody so most people ignore such sites !

[strictlybroadband]

but at the end of the day this is a small industry and everybody knows everybody so most people ignore such sites !

Agree with what you say. Sandie's treatment was just plain nasty and served no useful purpose. Beyond simply reproducing what the producer said, the person concerned also referred to Sandie as a "cunt". Nice... :confused:

[one eyed jack]

If this naming and shaming thing should prevail, whats to stop anyone saying who the crappest performers are out there...We all know a couple of names but choose not to say. Why? Because it is outright nasty and petty...But to your industry peers is ok. So I think this sort of thing should stay within the producers realm whether they be amateur or professional.

Then again I would say to take this under advisment as one man may perform well for one producer and not so well for another.

Its worked well for over the years. If some producers choose not to step up to the plate and rub shoulders with the rest of us in this industry (stand up and be counted) then its no wonder that some models would prefer to prioritise jobs in order of importance (or money) as they feel by not showing up you might not care anyway.

[marcusallen]

As some of you know, I had the biggest & best model agency for many years and did not have any of these problems because I knew all my models and all my clients. Some had foibles which made them incompatible to others and therefore would not be paired up.
These days, there are more "model agencies" than clients, not to mention all the girls who choose to make their own arrangements.
Petty back-biting & public moaning do little to positively promote the industry and I feel that all such gripes should be kept in-house and sorted accordingly.

[clare40dd]

i think you should theres no excuse i always turn up for shoots early unless its something really serious but always give notice if have to cancel anyway gunna start posting on this site see if its ok x:)